elanor_x ([info]elanor_x) wrote,
@ 2008-10-09 19:18:00
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Current mood: chipper
Entry tags:dh, hp

Chapter 16: Godric's Hollow.

Chapter 16: Godric's Hollow.

Sorry about doing Chapter 18 "The Life and Lies of Albus D" out of chronological order. I'll soon do Chapter 17 too and put links in each post to make matters clearer.

Note: I know Elkin's site "Overanalyzing The Text" [archives from HPFGU]; jodel_from_aol's from Red Hen Publications collection of essays and Dan Hemmens from The Ferretbrain . Does anybody know other sources of good HP meta\fic authors?


* To remind where we're – the previous chapter ended with Ron leaving.


* After Apparating to a different place, Hermione broke down sobbing, so Harry had to cast the protecting spells himself for the first time. I was surprised he could do it. The kids don't seem to study such things at school & Hermione supposedly cast them nonverbally. May be I had too low opinion of Harry's competence.


* The next few days Hermione keeps silently crying at nights (interesting how significantly less she'd suffer if not for being in love with Ron), while Harry's reaction is of hurt and anger. He keeps dwelling on Ron's sharp rebuke ("we thought you had a real plan!") and is sometimes unsure whether he is angrier with Ron or with D.


Hee, it returns me to the old game of anger pinball in OoTF & the fans being confused whom Harry hated more in the end. Apparently Harry is still confused too. Has he sorted it out by the epilogue or has the mystery stayed intact? I know he's forgiven Snape & D by then, but I can't imagine Auror!Harry without any new enemies to hate.


* The hell has frozen over – Harry's new hobby is looking at Ginny's name on the Marauder's Map at night. H\D fans can only sign wistfully, remembering the good old days of HBP when Harry looked at Draco day & night, while H\G shippers die of squee.


* Sorry, imo they can't quite die yet. Harry originally brought out the Map to search for Ron's dot in the castle. Only after several days, when Ron didn't appear, his attention switched to Ginny.


* I start getting weariful of incessant reminders that D left them with no clues. The readers know that already! That's why we're stuck in the camping trip.


* After discussing the whereabouts of Gryffindor's sword for days without any results, Harry and Hermione's silent evenings are revived only by Phineas's visits (I bet on Snape's request). It's like JKR decided to create more Slytherin fans: when you're that bored, any diversion is a blessing.


* Hermione keeps Phineas blindfolded to prevent him from discovering their location, yet he wouldn't see anything except the inside of the tent anyway. Probably another comic relief and (or by) Slytherin shaming moment.


* Phineas revealed Snape had reinstated Umbridge's decree forbidding gatherings of more than 3 students and Ginny had been banned from going into Hogsmeade (!!!).


* Now I wonder whether the ban was not so much a punishment as an attempt to prevent Ginny from bringing the twins' "joke" products into the school.


* Prior to buying DH I was wrongly spoiled Snape was evil. However, Ginny's punishments made me almost sure of the opposite. JKR cleverly leads younger readers to see Snape following in Umbridge's footsteps here, while older fans would get a hint of his innocence. "Cleverly", if she intended it, of course.


* Loved the following excerpt:


"as Phineas Nigellus talked about Snape's crackdown, Harry experienced a split second of madness when he imagined simply going back to school to join the destabilization of Snape's regime: Being fed, a having a soft bed, and other people being in charge, seemed the most wonderful prospect in the world at that moment. But then he remembered that he was Undesirable Number One…"


It’s very realistic imo. The underlined sentence demonstrates why for all its’ supposed darkness OoTF was children’s book. It’s also pretty ironic – Harry dreams of Snape other people being in charge, while he’ll work so they won’t be any longer. (I understand he wants to see D-like people in charge, but still). I was even surprised his dream was interrupted by remembering the Undesirable Status instead of imagining attacking D’s killer the moment Harry saw him, making it impossible to enjoy a soft bed even once.


* Harry & Hermione meander up and down the country, staying in various unwelcoming places, suffering being flooded with chill water, the tent half buried in snow, etc. instead of settling in one nice place. Does anybody know enough statistics to compute mathematically whether the strategy reduces the chance of discovery compared to staying in one discreet place? [Assuming the possibilities of DEs coming to any of those places are equal and they access them randomly.] Harry Potter and math. I seem to have a talent for ruining the mood, especially for fans still in school. LOL!


* Near Christmas Hermione is still busy deciphering “The Tales of Beedle the Bard” and asks Harry whether he’s ever seen a mysterious symbol [“a triangular eye, its pupil crossed with a vertical line”] before. He tells about Krum seeing it on a wall at Durmstrang, supposedly put by Grindelwald. The exchange reminds readers of Krum’s story & hints Krum was mistaken by viewing the symbol as one of Dark Magic: [Harry] “you’d think Scrimgeour would have recognized it. He was Minister, he ought to have been expert on Dark stuff”. That’s like saying: “Bush was Minister, he ought to differentiate between flour and white powder with anthrax spores”. I would expect Scrimgeour to know a lot about Dark Arts too, but due to being an Auror before becoming Minister. A typo?


* Hermione agreed with Harry’s suggestion to visit Godric’s Hollow (he even offered taking a few hours’ break from wearing the Horcrux to make her more persuadable). Love how she told she couldn’t think of anywhere else it could be either and “looked just as bewildered as he felt” when Harry didn’t understand she referred to the sword. Pity she didn’t ask what he wanted to go there for then. If you wonder, “for him, the lure of the village lay in his parents’ graves, (their) house… and in the person of Bathilda Bagshot” (he doesn’t believe she has the sword, leaving only the desire to question her about D’s past).


* Afterwards he’s astonished Godric’s Hollow is Godric’s Gryffindor birthplace. Hermione even tells: “Well, as the village is named after him I’d have thought you might have made the connection”. I was probably right in my evaluation of Harry’s abilities, after all.


* Hermione becomes more and more absorbed by the idea, finally arriving to the completely baseless conclusion that D entrusted the sword to Bathilda. Her theories in the previous books were much more logical and based on actual clues instead of wild guesses.
For example:

Cos -- Basilisk in the pipes – Petrified people + Hagrid’s roosters missing + Harry being the only one to hear it + Mourning Myrtle;

PoA -- Werewolf Lupin – being ill every month + Snape’s dislike (?).

Here it’s out of the blue, as if the author didn’t even lead her readers by hand, but rather violently jerked them in the desired direction.


JKR could easily plan that part better. D could leave a hint in his will or in a personal letter or in “The Tales of Beedle the Bard”. The overheard goblins could talk about some superstition, connecting the sword with its’ original owner’s place of birth (and of burial?) or\and mention Bathilda as the only person left in the village with connections to D, the last known owner of the sword. She could have some special, important to Harry knowledge as a historian too.


* Harry doesn’t believe Hermione’s theory, but as it falls in with his “dearest wish”, pretends to be enthusiastic: “Yeah, he [D] might have done!”


* As he goes to sleep, Harry imagines the life he could have if not for Voldemort for half a page, 6 books late in comparison with readers like me, who wanted to see the house and the cemetery since PS. Were you happy JKR showed us those places? The plot wouldn’t move quicker anyway, and we have seen something interesting at least.


* Despite planning the visit for a week [practicing Apparating together under the cloak, stealing hairs from a Muggle couple for Polyjuice Potion], Hermione didn’t consider leaving prints on the snow until after Apparating to the spot, so they had to take off the cloak and rely on the Potion alone. It is even better than when the Trio planned entering the Ministry for a month and Ron didn’t think navy blue robes of Magical Maintenance workers mattered enough to mention. The evidence fake Moody gave Harry & Hermione an undeserved compliment about having the potential to become good Aurors continues to mount up.


* Harry tried to remember any of the cottages, knowing it was impossible since he was little more than a year old. Well, he did remember Sirius’s motorbike, so…


* As they passed the war memorial in the village’s square, it transformed from an obelisk covered in names to a statue of 3 people: baby Harry and his parents. Some fans were disgusted by it, probably viewing the statue as the embodiment of the Chosen few concept in stone. The idea is presented on many levels: from Ollivander the Chosen Wandmaker to Harry being the only one to vanish Voldemort, encompassing everything Good People do as good by definition. Instead of millions of killed in the Second World War, we get 3 people. What was your reaction? If you didn’t like the statue, was it because of the mentioned above reason, simply because of JKR going overboard with Harry praise or due to something else?


* Personally, I didn’t pay special attention on the first read and afterwards couldn’t start disliking it, not when it inspired wonderful fan art, like:

Godric's Hollow by Efyor

AND
Godric's Hollow by ~sandelwood


* They enter the graveyard behind the small church, full of people celebrating Christmas [pay attention to the sharp contrast between celebrating the Savior’s birth and visiting Lily’s, who made the sacrifice 17 years ago, grave].


Harry spends half a page angsting over Kendra & Ariana’s grave. He “couldn’t help thinking that he and D both had deep roots in this graveyard”, yet D “had never thought to share the connection”. Harry imagined “what a bond that would have been”. Is it me or do the quoted passages sound false and un-Harry-like? For some reason, the expression “deep roots” just kills me. Is it a strange expression or does it sound normal in English?


When Harry angsts that to D their families being buried in the same graveyard “had been an unimportant coincidence, irrelevant”, am I supposed to be angry at D for that, instead of thinking “yes, it’s completely irrelevant”? It’s not like D’s dead relatives knew Harry’s parents. They died long before James and Lily were born. Hell, they died long before Voldemort was born. In my estimation, they most likely died prior to birth of Voldemort’s mother! I just tried to think how Harry’s feelings would look like in RL and don’t understand where he gets them from, except for plot purposes.


* Characteristically Harry doesn’t blame himself for the briefest moment for never telling D of his desire to visit his parents’ graves, never desiring it in the first place. Somehow it’s all D’s fault for not springing out of nowhere “And today we’ll visit your parents’ graves instead of learning more about Voldemort’s origins. And I’ll show you my relatives’ graves too”.


I know JKR wants Harry to angst here, but he could do it just as well about never asking D and losing the opportunity forever now, when D is dead too. It would be much more realistic and having the hero blaming himself for a change.


* Besides, had D done what Harry wishes for here, it wouldn’t have been a wonderful bond. Were Harry to hear the unedited, not saccharine-made story of D’s life, he would be disgusted, angry at D for telling his such “indecent” things without being asked [I can easily imagine Harry asking & then being angry at D for not knowing better than to tell him such details], probably comparing his desire to leave the place with the urge to escape from another graveyard in GoF.


* Kendra & Ariana’s grave bears a quotation:

"Where your treasure is, there will your heart be also"

la_cruz, a Christian woman who lives in Russia, wrote in her post [translation below]:


Слова, написанные на могиле в Годриковой Лощине: где сокровище ваше, там будет и сердце ваше. В христианской трактовке эти слова ясны: сокровище надо иметь на небесах, в Боге, тогда туда же будет стремиться сердце, и посмертие будет наполнено счастьем.


Translation: From Christian pov the words are clear: your treasure should be in the sky, in God, then your heart will strain after it too, and the afterlife will be filled with happiness.


My translation is that D chose those words to remind himself to strive after truth and real good, instead of the Greater Good.


Note: if somebody knows Russian, la_cruz HP posts are recommended. The quotes were taken from this post. She also writes about her life and Christianity (and its' depiction in HP).


* Hermione finds an extremely old grave with the discussed above triangular mark beneath the nearly illegible name of Ignotus. Exactly 85 pages from now Luna’s father will inform us that “the sign of the Deathly Hallows on Ignotus’s grave is conclusive proof” of his being one of the 3 Peverell brothers, the original owners of the Hallows. If I have understood it right, Ignotus was the younger, wisest brother, who chose the Invisibility Cloak.


* The headstone of Potters was only two rows behind Kendra and Ariana’s. Considering how many years passed between those deaths, the wizards probably have their own part of graveyard, away from Muggles. The village can’t be that small.


* Being as Bible ignorant as Harry, I couldn’t understand what “The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death” meant either. According to la_cruz [translation below]:


Это из 1-го послания ап.Павла Коринфянам. The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. (1Co.15:26), в русском переводе - "Последний же враг истребится - смерть..." В контексте речь идет о всеобщем воскресении из мертвых, связанном с Воскресением Христа.


Translation: In the context the sentence refers to the resurrection of the dead, connected with the Resurrection of Christ.


From wiki [in Christianity]: "The term resurrection of the dead is generally used to refer to the idea that the dead bodies of all or some of humanity will be reformed and reanimated at the End Times."


Hermione explains it means "living beyond death. Living after death", which seems to be different from the Christian explanation. It reminds me of soul living beyond death, not body. And not at the End Times, but immediately after death and forever, which seems to happen to all wizards. May be whoever chose the quote meant wizarding version of immortality, not Muggle one, which I quoted.


* I have found some beautiful depictions of the scene:

Godric's Hollow by Chutzpah

Godric's Hollow by Gold-Seven

Silver Doe's Visit by ~PhantomFan

Quoting the artist: "It's Godric's Hollow from Harry Potter, and it's the Silver Doe Patronus of Snape coming to visit Lily's grave."


* I understand Harry pain when Hermione’s words about living after death fail to comfort him. My reaction would be the same.


But they were not living, thought Harry: They were gone. The empty words could not disguise the fact that his parents' moldering remains lay beneath snow and stone, indifferent, unknowing. and tears came before he could stop them…He let them fall… looking down at the thick snow hiding from his eyes the place where the last of Lily and James lay, bones now, surely, or dust, not knowing or caring that their living son stood so near, his heart still beating, alive because of their sacrifice and close to wishing, at this moment, that he was sleeping under the snow with them.


* Fun fact: when Hermione created a wreath of Christmas roses to lay on the grave, my first thought was: "But what if somebody is watching them?" At the same time I discarded the thought, deeming myself paranoid.


More about Christmas roses.

* The chapter ends with them going towards the exit of the cemetery.



(26 comments) - (Post a new comment)


[info]sunnyskywalker
2008-10-10 03:00 pm UTC (link)
"Deep roots" strikes me as a poetic, literary way of putting it... so yeah, I found it odd for Harry to think of it that way.

The Trio are really terrible at planning, aren't they? I don't know that I'd be any better, but unlike me they have some experience at sneaking around to solve puzzles, and they're supposed to be saving the world. I still can't figure out why Dumbledore insisted that they be the only ones to know about the Horcruxes. It would be a lot easier if they could just ask for help!

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[info]elanor_x
2008-10-10 04:48 pm UTC (link)
Yes, in many emotional scenes JKR steps in and makes Harry her mouthpiece.

I am sure, unlike Hermione, you would consider the snow! When you plan how to hide under the cloak in winter, leaving prints is the first thing that jumps into my mind.
On a somewhat unrelated note, there is a scene in PoA movie, in which Harry overhears Sirius betrayed his parents, runs out of the pub and is found by his friends by prints on the snow.

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[info]sunnyskywalker
2008-10-10 07:01 pm UTC (link)
I sure hope I'd think of footprints! If I didn't, I'd have to fire myself from world-saving.

I remember that scene. After all those years of using the cloak to sneak around, surely that would have happened once or twice in the books too, if not necessarily in that scene. Which makes it even worse that H&H can't think of it despite having days to plan.

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[info]eir_de_scania
2008-10-10 04:14 pm UTC (link)
* The next few days Hermione keeps silently crying at nights (interesting how significantly less she'd suffer if not for being in love with Ron), while Harry's reaction is of hurt and anger. He keeps dwelling on Ron's sharp rebuke ("we thought you had a real plan!") and is sometimes unsure whether he is angrier with Ron or with D.
*** He should save that anger for JKR's editor(). They seem to have received the MS, done a quick check for spelling mistakes and hurried to get it in print. If they had done it the usual way, they would have read it, found weak spots and inconsistencies, discussed those with JKR and sent the MS back, for re-working. Perhaps more than once... But that would have meant the book in the shops perhaps a year later, and I can imagine the fannish outcry. X-(

Oh, and why the hell did they let her get away with keeping the overall plot a total secret? Wasn't there a single person somewhere who could be trusted not to tell? JKR could still write her story her way, but there would be fewer WTF!!??!! moments from her readers. It's obvious from several interviews over the years a lot of things are perfectly clear to her, but not to us. How Harry got the map back is just one example.

Sorry, rant over.

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[info]elanor_x
2008-10-10 04:54 pm UTC (link)
Rant away. :)
People say laughing is good for health, imo ranting is sometimes good too.

From my pov the series went downhill since the fifth book (including it). Was she already famous enough for the MS of OoTF to receive the same treatment?

Oh, and why the hell did they let her get away with keeping the overall plot a total secret?
Why not? They didn't lose money on it, after all.

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[info]eir_de_scania
2008-10-10 05:42 pm UTC (link)
Sad but true. The books will sell, so we need not give this fledgling writer the support she, like everyone else, need.

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[info]jodel_from_aol
2008-10-10 07:03 pm UTC (link)
By the time OotP was turned in the series had become a "product". Every one of the following books came out with the very shortest turn-around possible for production. None of them were edited. I'd say that GoF wasn't either, but Rowling has described edits to it. What I suspect is that it was edited in the earlier stages, but the rewrite was left to stand untouched. Bloomsbury only announced when the final version was turned in. And I don't think anyone edited that one because it was already overdue.

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[info]montavilla
2008-10-10 07:18 pm UTC (link)
And now, ironically, Warner Bros. is delaying the film of HBP for nearly a year based only on fiscal reasoning (they say that the movie will do better if they release it next July rather than this November).

I was a bit shocked when I heard the release date for DH. Since JKR had said she was taking a year off because of her baby, I thought it would be three years, not two, before the book was out. I worried that the book would not be as good as could be. And lo, I was right about that.

I liked OotP (although I disliked it the first time I read it). I was wild about the series after HBP, based solely on the Snape story. I was on tenderbooks about it, knowing, knowing that Snape was still Dumbledore's man.

I really wish I could have liked this chapter more. It should be affecting that Harry is finally visiting his parents' graves. But it's spoiled a bit for me by all that angsting about Dumbledore. Who cares! Harry had three chapters to mourn Dumbledore in HBP, I don't need him whinging about the guy neglecting to tell him about something that happened a hundred years ago and was, frankly, none of Harry's business.

About the statue. I honestly can't remember how I felt about it when I read it. I think it was rolled up with a generally annoyance I felt about the whole storyline at that point. I was really bugged at how stupid and ineffective the Trio was being. I was annoyed at Ron for leaving and annoyed at myself for staying. I was annoyed at Harry for chasing Lupin off. I was annoyed at the Trio for spending months planning out their little expeditions and not anticipating basic things.

I missed Snape. I missed people with basic competence skills and knowledge.

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[info]elanor_x
2008-10-10 07:46 pm UTC (link)
Yes, I have read about it too. :(
Why ironically? Since JKR was forced to hurry to (supposedly) earn more money and they do the opposite, delaying the film to achieve the same goal?

I was extremely eager to read the book, but, of course, would have preferred waiting more time and getting a better one. What's one or even a couple of years compared to the book, which will forever be the last of the series? Even more pressure to get it right since after that you can't correct mistakes any longer. I've heard that the first and the last songs in a concert leave lasting impression, and imo the last book in the series definitely does.

I disliked OotP the first time I read it and it's still my least favorite book of the series. It's due to 2 reasons: Harry acquiring the taste for CapsLock AND Umbridge irritating and boring me to death almost every time she appears. Couldn't bring myself to re-reading it. May be in another 10 years.

I disliked the scene with Lupin. He is presented in such unattractive light and stopped being an interesting character after PoA. Getting married and then killed (both off-screen) isn't interesting enough to dedicate him an entire chapter.

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[info]montavilla
2008-10-11 05:22 pm UTC (link)
I wasn't aware that JKR hurried the book to make more money. I thought she hurried it because she wanted to finish it and get on with her life.

It took reading OotP a few times for me to start to like it. I finally decided that Harry's CapsLock was due to his being fifteen years old and was a phase. As I hoped Ginny's bitchiness was a phase in HBP. I disliked what happened to Sirius. Not so much that he died--although it was a stupid death--but because he turned from being a caring, responsible Godfather into a selfish, sulking teenager.

It's funny when you think about it. All the major deaths in the series (except for Cedric) took place after the characters turned into unlikeable people. Sirius became a depressed alcoholic. Dumbledore became rude and manipulative (previously, he had merely been manipulative). Lupin became irresponsible and weak.

I don't really count Moody, because Harry never really knew him. Tonks because Harry never reallly liked her. Or Fred because he became unlikeable in GoF when he started sending crap to Percy in the mail.

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[info]elanor_x
2008-10-11 07:02 pm UTC (link)
I wasn't aware that JKR hurried the book to make more money. I thought she hurried it because she wanted to finish it and get on with her life.
I meant her publishers did that. Remember reading that she had to complete one of the earlier books (after the series became famous) by a specific date and did that in a hurry.
Agree about JKR wanting to get on with her life, but as jodel_from_aol noted above, after OoTF the books would benefit from more editing. It was her publishers' job to unsure that, which they didn't do in the best way to say the least. Imo they wanted to publish the books as soon as possible, disregarding the quality. Why? I can think only of money reasons.

I still have no desire to re-read OoTF. Harry's CapsLock may be a phase, but it doesn't make reading half-page in CapsLock any easier. Imo I'll re-read it after a couple of years, jumping over CapsLock heavy pages and chapters.

Lupin has always been this way. One gets hints in Snape-torturing scene in OoTF. Dumbledore... *trying not to be confused by GoF movie D, who was rude* Don't remember seeing rude behavior prior to HBP. I guess JKR made their flaws apparent as a way to show Harry growing up & starting noticing the flaws in likable people. With D it was like a child stopping idealizing a parent at a certain stage in development.

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[info]tdotm
2008-10-10 08:40 pm UTC (link)
Warner Brothers didn't delay the film of HBP purely because they think it'd do better in July than November. Their reason *was* financial though, and they didn't bother to try and hide it, either.

After the recent writers strike, WB don't have much in the way of blockbusters scheduled for 2009. After the Dark Knight, they've already done incredibly well in 2008. Rather than have HBP add to an already very successful 2008, they want to release it in the sparse 2009 to maintain their year on year figures. The Dethly Hallows parts 1 and 2 will bolster 2010 (Nov) and 2011 (May).

After that, they'll probably film the Tales of Beedle the Bard starring Ian McKellen as Beedle, and Sir Michael Caine as 'Death'.

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(Anonymous)
2008-10-10 09:09 pm UTC (link)
Hermione broke down sobbing, so Harry had to cast the protecting spells himself for the first time. I was surprised he could do it.

Harry had these bursts of plot-required instant skill acquisition since Book 1, but I agree that in DH both he and Hermione went entirely overboard with it. They could suddenly do highly specialized things that they have shown no inkling knowing just one short month (series-time) previously.

Re: wandering versus discreetly hiding, since Rowling didn't bother to come up with any explanation whether and how the magic can be traced (except for the ultra-lame underage Trace that contradicts everything in the previous books), there is nothing we readers could usefully conclude.

As regards the endless and useless discussions, I can't help but think how much more sense it would have made to swipe Voldy's file from the MoM somehow and to follow on HBP Horcrux clues pertaining to his adult life. Or if the Order had their own copy of it, delivered by resident Aurors and the trios had to put their hands on it somehow.
Of course, they didn't even bother to follow on the few clues they _did_ have. Checking Borgin's? Checking around the Orphanage? Checking the house of Hepzibah Smith? Pfft, what is that? It doesn't help that they don't know how to identify Voldy's magic in the first place.

_That_ as opposed to Voldyvision and a load of other sudden implausible talents would have been a sensible ability for Harry to have, given their connection. If after the Cave he could recognize the imprints of Voldy's magic. Then we could have had an interesting and consequent Horcrux hunt. Even though the trio still shouldn't have had the skills to disarm the protections, if the Cave was any indication.
It would have also been nice to see the trio participating in the Order operations in the first half of the book or something. They could have had some immediate successes with that and we the readers could have seen what it is at stake.

Instead of millions of killed in the Second World War, we get 3 people.

I hated it. On the one hand, Voldy is supposed to be a danger for the whole world and to have caused suffering and death of lots (thousands?) of people. On the other hand, it has to be _all_ about Harry and his family. Are there any monuments to Voldy's other victims? Of course not!
And the whole world has to sit on their behinds and wait for Saviour Harry to save them. They can't even mount a credible resistance or an underground railroad to rescue the Muggleborns. No, it all has to be up to ignorant, surly, teen Chosen One. Yes, this "solution" to violent racism and ethnic cleansings is abonimable, IMHO. Particularly considering the plot trappings lifted from RL.

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[info]elanor_x
2008-10-11 07:28 am UTC (link)
Checking Borgin's? Checking around the Orphanage? Checking the house of Hepzibah Smith? Pfft, what is that? It doesn't help that they don't know how to identify Voldy's magic in the first place.

I don't think V would leave something of value in a shop.

Re: the Orphanage. Loved how the issue was dealt with in mistful's fic. It was discussed, but Harry felt sure V would never leave anything there since he hated the place, like Harry the Dursleys' house. For all we know, the building turned into a ruin long ago. I would like to see that place through Harry's eyes though. Preferably instead of visiting Luna's father and starting the whole Hallows subplot. And instead of Ron the Traitor subplot.

I got the impression Voldemort stole things from the house of Hepzibah Smith, not left them there. Especially after the woman was murdered and her relatives or the Ministry got all Hepzibah's possessions and could sell them to anyone.

Make no mistake, I would love to see the Trio visiting more interesting places.

On the other hand, it has to be _all_ about Harry and his family. Are there any monuments to Voldy's other victims? Of course not!
To be fair, they may be the only wizards from that village, who were killed in the war. The obelisk was covered in names of Muggle people only from the village too.

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[info]sunnyskywalker
2008-10-13 10:51 pm UTC (link)
On the other hand, since they're just sitting around anyway, why not check some of those places out? Not for Horcruxes, but for more clues to Tom's life which might lead somewhere? I imagine his employee file at Borgin & Burke's would make interesting reading, at the very least, and possibly mention places he went frequently looking for rare objects to acquire. Which might have been a more sensible way to find the Ravenclaw diadem than "oh look, it happened to be mixed in with the junk in the RoR because Tom thought no one else had ever discovered the way in despite all the fanged frisbees lying around!"

Now, if they went in and found Voldemort had already lifted his file, fine, but it could still have led to something interesting. (Is that cabinet still there and functional, eg?)

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(Anonymous)
2008-10-15 02:08 pm UTC (link)
Ditto. If the clues from HBP had actually been important for eventual victory over Voldy, then learning more about him could have only helped. Also, it doesn't matter, IMHO, whether Voldy would have "hated" a place or not. The important thing to him (at least according to HBP, though it got dropped completely in DH), was that the place was a stage of some personal triumph he felt worthy of commemorating - i.e. the Gaunt shack (murdering his father's family and making Morfin, his disappointing and repulsive uncle, take the rap for it), the Cave, etc.
And by this measure it could have very well been Hepzibah's house - a place, where he bagged 2 Founder relics, murdered another heir of a Founder and got away with it. The other 2 are less likely, I agree, but still not impossible. And since in HBP all the Horcruxes apart from the diary, which was "different", were supposed to be carefully hidden and protected, it wouldn't have mattered whether they were hidden in a shop or in a private house. In fact, hiding it in a place with lots of other magic may have made tracking it down more difficult.

Oh, and why weren't the "lost" 10 or so years when Voldy was traveling and consorting with the worst of the wizarding world worth a little investigation? And the sites of his most notorious murders during the VW1, as well as those of some mysterious deaths earlier that may have been connected to him in some way?
Well, we know why. Because Rowling wanted Harry to be "lost", clueless, inept, passive and agonizing over DD, yet to triumph anyway. Being logical, doing some work - that would have come perilously close to ambition and she couldn't have that! Even in DH, Hermione had to clean his nose for Harry - even the simplest reasonable preparation on her "hero's" part was anathema to the author...

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[info]seductivedark
2008-10-10 11:33 pm UTC (link)
Does anybody know enough statistics to compute mathematically whether the strategy reduces the chance of discovery compared to staying in one discreet place? [Assuming the possibilities of DEs coming to any of those places are equal and they access them randomly.] Harry Potter and math. I seem to have a talent for ruining the mood, especially for fans still in school. LOL!

I'm taking statistics and probability as a form of Logic/Philosophy this semester.

Assuming that each night's stay in a different location is mutually exclusive and independent, there is a 50/50 chance of the DEs finding them on any given night.

Assuming that each night's stay is in the same location, then it won't be mutually exclusive or independent any more. Each night of staying in the same place would increase the odds that random noises escaping from the wards or forays for food outside of the wards would either alert DEs or informants. Each night will build upon the random chance that each previous day may have accidentally tipped of a DE or an informant and so staying in the same location would not be mutually exclusive and independent of every other night, IMO, and would result in increased chances of discovery.

I would expect Scrimgeour to know a lot about Dark Arts too, but due to being an Auror before becoming Minister. A typo?

It assumes that the Minister for Magic would need to be conversant with all departments under him and the magic they would use, more like a Star Fleet commander who can take the comm at a crucial moment than like a Prime Minister or President.

What was your reaction? If you didn’t like the statue, was it because of the mentioned above reason, simply because of JKR going overboard with Harry praise or due to something else?

I didn't care for it on one level, since by this time I was sure the author would mete out Divine Authorial Fiat for Harry winning rather than making him earn his reputation and his laurels. On another level, it reinforced the idea that Wizards think this low of Muggles to supercede a memorial for many more than three dead from the village in a war which was truly for the benefit of everyone else in the country, with a statue to two people who were martyred and a child they hoped would save their skins.

Of course, the war memorial could have been yet another reminder that the WW's war was supposed to echo WWII, or a mirror of one war's monument hiding the monument of another war. I just don't choose to ascribe those attributes to this.

Oh. Just looked at the fan art. Nice stuff, but too much of a Madonna/Child/Joseph vibe. I think I'll stick with disliking the statue as too much and too high Harry praise - I mean, he isn't Christ.

Is it me or do the quoted passages sound false and un-Harry-like? For some reason, the expression “deep roots” just kills me. Is it a strange expression or does it sound normal in English?

It sounds pompous or archaic in English. Someone Harry's age might think they had the same hometown and Dumbledore didn't mention it, or something more along those lines.

On all this angsting, Harry doesn't remember living there, he left when he was fifteen months old. Dumbledore had been gone fron GH since the late 1800s - both of them had more of a connection to Hogwarts than to GH so I agree that it was irrelevant.

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[info]elanor_x
2008-10-11 07:51 am UTC (link)
there is a 50/50 chance of the DEs finding them on any given night
I am surprised. The chance seems so high. Of course, it doesn't matter in the Potterverse, where nobody searches forests or Muggle towns for them anyway. The only way to get caught is to say "Voldemort" or try to connect with other wizards.

Talking about statistics reminded me of one joke I translated from Russian (more better jokes here: http://elanor-x.livejournal.com/12327.html#cutid1 ):

Hermione & Ron are asked.
- Tell, Miss Granger, what is the probability to meet Voldemort in the Hogwarts' corridors?
- 1 milliard's.
Ron is asked the same question.
- A half.
- How?!
- Or I will meet him or won't.

It assumes that the Minister for Magic would need to be conversant with all departments under him and the magic they would use, more like a Star Fleet commander who can take the comm at a crucial moment than like a Prime Minister or President.
Yes, if the Minister were like a Star Fleet commander it would make sense, but Rowling clearly pictures her world and wizarding government differently, like in the RL.

I agree that it was irrelevant.
Now I wonder how thick the book would be, if all things we consider irrelevant were thrown out. JKR would have to tighten the rest of the plot and invent new things.

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[info]seductivedark
2008-10-11 01:28 pm UTC (link)
Me: there is a 50/50 chance of the DEs finding them on any given night
elanor: I am surprised. The chance seems so high. Of course, it doesn't matter in the Potterverse, where nobody searches forests or Muggle towns for them anyway. The only way to get caught is to say "Voldemort" or try to connect with other wizards.

If things worked the way one might expect in something closer to a magical logical reality, the fact that the Ministry could trace spells (and there's no reason not to put a trace on Harry, Ron and Hermione given that the DEs are in charge of the Ministry), the fact that the trio didn't leave Britain, the fact that they did make forays into neighboring Muggle villages, should have increased the risk of finding them. Since there was no coherent plan to capture them, rendering the plotline implausible to me, I have to throw up my hands in frustration and assign a 50/50 chance just based on Ron's statement in the joke: either they do find them or they don't. It all seems like random chance until Harry forgets he's not supposed to say "Voldemort."

By the way, love the joke!

Yes, if the Minister were like a Star Fleet commander it would make sense, but Rowling clearly pictures her world and wizarding government differently, like in the RL.

To me, it is completely realistic to find a head of state who doesn't know about law enforement or food regulations. That's one reason these people have advisors. I think a lot of people who don't put much thought into government might assume that the higher an official rises in government, the more he or she would know. Rowling has Arthur drifting from one department's head position to another, for instance, so maybe she envisions that they all do; that doesn't jibe with Scrimgeour rising through the Auror ranks, though.

Yeah, I think you've spotted another discrepancy. *sigh*

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[info]montavilla
2008-10-11 05:28 pm UTC (link)
The silly thing was that the Trio didn't just go hide with the Muggles. Both Harry and Hermione were raised by Muggles and could have blended in very easily. Ron would be more difficult, but they could simply pass him off as their slow cousin. Also--first thing I'd do would be to buy some hair dye for him.

I suppose they were too ethical, but it would have been easy for a wizard to confund a different night clerk every night in order to get a hotel room. A few magical cleaning spells in the morning and no one would ever know they were there. It's not like Voldemort, with all the wizarding resouces at his command, would be able to watch every hotel or inn in England.

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[info]elanor_x
2008-10-11 07:13 pm UTC (link)
Going hiding with the Muggles was one of the more apparent ideas. There probably are many fics, where the Trio does that. Passing Ron as slow cousin would have a wonderful comic potential too. :)

JKR didn't want to go down this avenue and explained that by the Trio's fear to be quickly discovered by DEs, as they have been in the Muggle pub, where Hermione has taken them running from the wedding.

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[info]seductivedark
2008-10-12 02:54 pm UTC (link)
It would have been easy to do what Slughorn did during his year in hiding, too - take over a Muggle home while the Muggles were on vacation or between tenants. Why else would it be brought up? It seemed to work well enough for Slughorn, unless they really weren't after him.

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[info]seductivedark
2008-10-12 01:04 am UTC (link)
"Where your treasure is, there will your heart be also" / Translation (from La Cruz's LJ): From Christian pov the words are clear: your treasure should be in the sky, in God, then your heart will strain after it too, and the afterlife will be filled with happiness.

Whatever you value the most is what enlivens your heart. If your treasure is on earth (where moth and rust corrupt) then you will lose your treasure and your salvation. If your treasure is in heaven, then your heart will be centered on heavenly things which are uncorruptable. The things you treasure are what fill you with happiness.

I think it was used on the Dumbledore headstone because it reinforces Albus's wrong thinking and change of heart.

The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. (1Co.15:26) / Translation: In the context the sentence refers to the resurrection of the dead, connected with the Resurrection of Christ.

The chapter, I Corinthians 15, talks about some early Christians' disbelief in the raising of the dead. There is an order to the events of the Last Days. Christ was raised first, he is called "The firstfruits of them that slept." Then comes the end where Christ delivers the Kingdom of God and subdues all his enemies. The last enemy which will be conquered will be death and all the dead in Christ will rise, defying death and conquering it. It is a hope for all Christians and is another identifier with Christ. Christians are baptized because he was baptized, and they will rise again because he rose.

In this Bible chapter, the dead remain dead until all of God's enemies have been conquered. Elsewhere, to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord. (2 Corinthians 5:8) So most people imagine these days that once a person is dead, he or she is being welcomed into heaven. This is a comfort to the survivors and is often used for funerals and for inscriptions on gravestones.

I think this quote was used on the Potter's grave because of Voldemort's fear of death, which Harry doesn't have. Death has to be defeated, meaning Voldemort has to be defeated, and reflects the story of the Three Brothers, the last one revealing himself to Death in the end, unafraid.

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[info]elanor_x
2008-10-12 06:02 am UTC (link)
Thank you for the explanations!

"All the dead in Christ will rise" equals "only Christians will rise", yes?

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[info]seductivedark
2008-10-12 11:25 am UTC (link)
Not sure about that one, any more than I'm positive everyone's dead until the judgment. For certain, Biblically speaking, "The dead in Christ shall rise first" meaning Christians, "and after that the judgment." So at some point, everyone, Christian or not, will end up being judged and the non-Christians get sent to hell.

Not my beliefs, but they used to be. It's interesting to consider why each quote was chosen for each headstone, though. The quotes in themselves, even out of context, can illuminate the text or reinforce an idea being offered.

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[info]mmmarcusz
2009-01-05 11:45 pm UTC (link)
the place where the last of Lily and James lay, bones now, surely, or dust,

Doesn't it take centuries for bones to degrade? But sooper LilySue's bones cried themselves to dust when they realised her lovely loving spirit of love had left.

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